Talk:Steven Rogers (Earth-616)
Captain America's Physical Strength By Brian Schott Many thanks to the Webmaster for participating in this interview focused on Captain America! For more on Captain America click here to visit the Captain America: Living Legend Web Site. Super Solider? Human at peak condition? Ordinary Joe? Just what is Cap's current strength level these days? I don't think Cap has ever been an ordinary Joe, though a lot of times he gives that impression, especially in the Avengers, where's he's been known to say stuff like "I don't have powers like the rest of you". And while it's true he's no Iron Man or Thor in terms of the might he brings to the table, he's definitely better than us normal folks can be. Cap's been billed as being the "peak of human potential", but does "peak" mean something us humans can achieve now or something that will take us 100 years to develop? Personally, I don't think the government invested in a Super-Soldier program so they could create soldiers that regular people could be if they tried hard enough. Especially if you consider that Cap is "peak" in every aspect of the human body. If you break down what we humans can do, such as strength, dexterity, endurance, good looks (heh) Cap is in top from in all of these areas. So at the lowest level, maybe humans could achieve one of these aspects. Maybe someone could work out with weights enough to be as strong as Cap, but if you've ever seen an Olympic weight lifter, you know that guy isn't going to be near as agile as Cap. Likewise, a guy conditioned to compete in the 100 yard dash isn't going to have the body needed to lift record breaking weights. Cap's does. That's his "power" in my book. His body allows him to win every gold metal event. Now whether, as stated above, these specific aspects could be achieved by a normal person, I'm not sure. It's hard to say in the Marvel Universe, when guys like Daredevil, who have no strength augmentation, are pushing cars over. I guess the human bar is a bit higher in the comic world. But (to get to the point of your question), I think Cap can lift about 2-ish tons. There are plenty examples of his super strength. He stood casually as two motorcycles tied to his wrists tried pulling him in opposite directions, in CAP #259. He was bench pressing weights with a digital readout of "1,100" while chewing the fat with D-Man. He's snapped guns, ropes, chains and even an anchor chain on a battle ship. In AVENGERS #170, after the Scarlet Witch tells Cap he's been screwing up the team, he goes on a workout spree, some of which involved holding himself, arms extended, upside on the rings, only to follow that by curling 500lbs weights. I'd say he's got super-strength. It's just not as noticeable when you're on the same team as gods. My personal research (Comics and roleplaying games) Cap picked up Thors hammer with seemingly no effort and handed it to him. Now then in order to even pick Thors hammer the requirements is: (in roleplaying termnology)Only one who is worthy may lift Mijolnir. The wielder (other than Thor) must have 1000+ Karma, Remarkable 30 Strength Which is a 1 ton requirment and positive Popularity. A non-living object must have at least Remarkable Strength to lift Mjolnir. Ill give another example in comic issue # 402 title: Man and Wolf (part 1 of 6), page 4 top panel Cap is having a conversation with D-Man while bench pressing 1,100 lbs, another example, The Gamer’s Handbook of the Marvel Universe: Abomination thru Dreadnought page 130 copy write 1988 has Cap listed as Rm (30), Another example Marvel Super Heroes Expert Edition Volume #1 A thru M copy write Jan 13 1999 has Cap listed as Rm (30), Another example Marvel Universe Roleplaying game book the copy write date is 2003, they have Caps strength listed as 4 which is broken down into weight terms as in the difficulty chart on page # 80 is 1,000 lbs – up to 2 tons. Roleplaying stats aren't relevant when it comes to determining his strength in terms of an article like this. According to Marvel, he can lift a maximum of 800 lbs. Now, common sense would suggest that after years of working out that Cap can lift more than 800 lbs by now. However, until Marvel says otherwise, that's what his official level of strength is. Marvel also measures a character's physical strength by how much he/she can lift above his/her head with their arms fully extended and not by how much weight they can bench. A person can almost always bench press more weight than they can lift over his/her head. For instance, if a person can bench 300 lbs, they can lift about two-thirds of that weight above their head, which would be 200 lbs in this case. So, if that holds true for Captain America, his maximum bench press would be somewhere around 1,200 lbs, which would fit in with him working out with 1,100 lbs. Cap being able to lift Thor's hammer had nothing to do with strength. There's was an enchantment placed on Mjolnir by Odin stating that only the most worthy are able to lift the hammer. It's got something to do with that person's strength of character, purity of heart, and things of that nature. Jack Hammer 02:15, 5 December 2006 (UTC) :Come on guys, let's not go back and forth here. I have personally seen the image cited above for Captain America benchpressing 1100 lbs. (In fact, I found it here on the database...) :I know this isn't exactly what Marvel's handbooks have always gone by, but it should indicate that 800 lbs shouldn't be unreasonable. :Before we change the article again, can we please talk about it here until we reach a concensus? :Cheers, :--JamieHari 14:19, 6 December 2006 (UTC) ::I think we should put both for strength, to some story-continuity is more important then hand-books. Either that or just remove both and just use the term peak of human potential for all his stats and leave it up to the reader's imagination? :::Missing data is certainly better than incorrect data, not that I am saying the info we have is wrong... :::--JamieHari 15:47, 6 December 2006 (UTC) :::: What missing data?Sage99 16:56, 6 December 2006 (UTC) ::::: "Either that or just remove both and just use the term peak of human potential for all his stats and leave it up to the reader's imagination" ... :::::--JamieHari 17:37, 6 December 2006 (UTC) ::As I stated earlier, how much weight a character can bench press, in the Marvel Universe, is irrelevant. Marvel Comics measures the strength of their characters by how much weight they can lift over their heads, not by how much they can bench press. They're two completely different lifts. Marvel has stated that Cap can lift a maximum of 800 lbs over his head. This really isn't open to interpretation. The reason Marvel came out with the OHOTMU is to provide information to questions like "how much can so and so lift"? so we can't ignore how it chooses to categorize certain aspects of a characters abilities just because we might not agree with it. Jack Hammer 19:20, 6 December 2006 (UTC) :::While I agree that OHotMU is very concise in this regard, that doesn't mean that the other information is irrelevant. For instance, because Mr. Example's hair is naturally blond, doesn't mean that we can't also state in his article that he always keeps his hair dyed green. Furthermore, there have been countless examples of our beloved handbooks being inconsistant with canon data. This doesn't mean either are 'wrong', but usually the handbooks take precedence and the situation in the storyline can be 'an exceptional case'. :::In my opinion, we could list his strength as 800 lbs, noting that it refers to 'overhead press' and further down the article, in the 'Notes' section, we could certainly state that he has been shown to be able to 'benchpress' 1100 lbs. (With a link to the image above) :::Would this solution satisfy both points of view? :::--JamieHari 19:52, 6 December 2006 (UTC) ::::Sounds good you don't have to link it though just title/number of issue is suffice imo. Also I have the handbooks and it does not say with supreme effort on the one's that I'm looking at for 800 lbs.Sage99 :::: Also for exceeding Cap has ripped steel off a tractor in Cap v1 #339 , to throw his shield to hit a missile in Cap v3 #27, dent pure steel in Cap Medussa effect, pulled a supply truck through the desert with a broken axil in Dead Man Running, to hold up a portion of a sky-scrapper in Cap v3 10, to hold up tons of steel/concrete in Cap v1 #229.Sage99 :::I remember reading he was able to lift a maximum of 800 lbs with supreme effort. It might have been in an older edition of the OHOTMU. I'm not trying to start a big debate, but it simply seems that personal viewpoints are being inserted when it comes to Cap's strength. You keep insisting that him being able to bench press 1,100 lbs is an indicator of his strength to the point that it overshadows Marvel's official position on the subject and it simply shouldn't be. Marvel doesn't use the bench press to determine character strength, so why shouldn't it be the same here? The character is their property, they can pretty much do whatever they wish to him in every measurable aspect. They come up with the information and they put it out when they've got everything lined up just how they want it. It's the views and interpretations of Marvel that count. Otherwise, this is just another fan site. Jack Hammer 00:43, 7 December 2006 (UTC) ::::Nope checked it there's no supreme effort. Its an idicator for strength the 1100 in bench it does not mean it cannot be referenced. Yes marvel count thats why that feat is allowed. You act like only handbook feats references count, which is not the case for here. As you say marvel sets the standards which are the books. ::::Sage99 :::::I am really disappointed that you both edited the article again without yet reaching an agreement. :::::Let me clarify some things for you: :::::# Although this is a fan-site, this is not just another fan-site. It is THE largest in the world, and I believe the best. There is a reason for that; We have a great crew of dedicated community members that are willing to work hard and put opinions and hearsay aside. Please remember not to add your own thoughts into the articles, BUT you certainly are encouraged to add your own flare in wording the facts the way you think sounds best. (As long as the fact isn't miscommunicated.) :::::# If it is canon, it counts. Unless it is ret-conned, in which case it should be moved from the body of the main article to a 'Note' or 'Trivia', or altogether. :::::# Please remember, we have no upper limit of how much space we have on this database, don't try to save hard drive sectors on my behalf. Fill every article with as MUCH (correct) information as possible. Even if that means putting it in the 'Notes' section and stating it is 'unconfirmed', etc. :::::# Back-and-forth wars (aka revert wars) are not welcome here. We have way too much work left to be done to deal with these issues. Let's be mature and 'professional' about this. We should discuss this until we find something that works for the majority of the people. ::::: A final note, revert wars have resulted in ''locked pages''. I would really hate to do that again. It prevents other unrelated contributions from taking place. Can you both agree it is best to work together? ::::: I thank you both for taking the time to read my (long) rant. Cheers guys... ::::: --JamieHari 02:12, 7 December 2006 (UTC) ::I agree with you and both types of references should be allowed, I actually did not delete the 800 lbs no more and want both there. The other poster keeps deleting the other cannon source.Sage99 I'm fine with adding the 1,100 lb bench press incident in the Notes section because it's emphasis isn't being placed ahead Marvel's official position on how they measure strength and the amount of weight he is capable of lifting. However, I do have objections with trying to slip it into the section regarding the brief description of Cap's peak human level strength. All that does is use info from a lift that isn't Marvel's official position and imposing that lift above Marvel's position. That's what led to this little edit war to begin with. Jack Hammer 00:46, 8 December 2006 (UTC) :Aren't we placing to much emphasis on what Marvel chooses to include in the handbooks and not considering that this information is still canonized, as per another published comic? :I do also agree that we don't need it up in the strength section, but the formatting of OUR pages on OUR website is dictated by how WE decide, not Marvel. Just because we loosely based our format on the handbooks doesn't mean we can't stray now and again... Just something to think about. :--JamieHari 01:18, 8 December 2006 (UTC) Not at all. If anything, Marvel's view is really all that should matter. If Cap would've been overhead pressing 1,100lbs, then I'd probably be somewhat more inclined to agree since that's how they choose to measure a character's strength. This might be OUR website but it's comprised of information from characters that AREN'T ours. If the point is to include accurate information on the characters, then the info should be what's official rather than our own opinions. Jack Hammer 00:43, 9 December 2006 (UTC) :Yes, but you have misstated a major aspect of all this: This isn't our opinion. We have a canon reference that proves he can bench press 1100. Like Wikipedia, who 'owns' none of the data in its pages, we have free reign to organize it how we feel best suits our readers. :I am going to pull the EiC card on this one. The article will maintain the information about Cap benching 1100 in the notes section. The strength section will state 800 lbs, for an overhead press. :I think this compromise suits both sides of this as best as possible. The information is there, but not featured in such a way as to contradict Marvel's handbooks. :Fair? :--JamieHari 01:17, 9 December 2006 (UTC) :It's a fair compromise. I had no problem using the 1,100lbs bench press incident in the notes section because it helps to back up Cap being able to lift 800lbs above his head, since most people can typically military press 2/3 of their max bench weight. What got stuck in my craw was the bench stat superceding the overhead press stat because Marvel doesn't use bench to measure how strong a character is. The 1,100lbs bench press uses some real world common sense since it backs up the 800lbs overhead press stat nicely. Whether fictional or real, virtually everyone can bench press more weight than they can lift over their head. Jack Hammer 01:18, 10 December 2006 (UTC) Added some cannon story-continuity featsSage99 Scientific Genius of Cap Whoever put this Quote:Captain America's exceptional ability as a tactical commander. He is not on par with scientific geniuses like Reed Richards, Magneto (Magnus), Iron Man (Tony Stark), Beast (Hank McCoy), or similar luminaries.:End Quote. Its silly even to mention this. Cap has enhanced intelligence and has used it in the fields of combat/warfare-strategy/weapons. It does not mean if he did not focus in science he could not be something great in Science. Unless you have a source the the SSS mind enhancement does not work for science and other areas, otherwise its just your opinion. Sage99 :While I agree the quote could (should) be reworded, just becuase someone doesn't have a citation proving this statement is false, doesn't then mean that the statement is true. Personally, I am very sure that Captain America generally smart guy, on and off the battlefied. He is not, however, close to the calibre of intelligence as Reed Richards. Reed understands concepts foreign to even OTHER brilliant minds, scientific or otherwise. I don't need a single source for that, since pretty much every comic he is in, he proves it. :Although, I bet there are a few examples regarding either the ulitmate nullifier or other Galactus related hardware. :I will let the statement remain, but maybe it should be reworded a bit. :--Jamie 14:35, 22 December 2006 (UTC) ::: No one is saying he is at the calibre of Reed. The person that put that quote is making the comparison. For all we know if Cap used his enhanced mind soley in the dedication to technology he could be on par with Tony Starks in robotics or even Bruce Banner in gamma radiation. By this logic I could voice in such opinion. That portion should be removed in my opinion and just leave it at that since its just speculation. Caps enhanced human mind has only been used in the field of combat-weapons/martial arts/warfare strategy etc etc. Point is we don't know how advanced he would be in other fields when dedicated to that. Thus is a pointless comparison in my opinion. Even Bruce Banner is smarter then Reeds in the area fields in Gamma Radiation.Sage99 ::::I need to humbly disagree with Sage99. Caps enhanced mental abilities relate to speed, not intelligence level. He's able to quickly formulate sound tactical plans, and thats the *only example of improved mental performance* we have ever seen from Cap. I'm afraid we'll need to see a citation otherwise to even consider the opposite - claiming Cap has genius level intelligence is patently false as far as I can determine. --Squirrelloid 20:58, 19 January 2007 (UTC) :::::I agree. This is something that just doesn't fit with Captain America. It's a subject debated in the Cap article on Wikipedia.com, occassionally. When I hear something like peak human intelligence, that sounds like someone whose intellect is at the pinnacle of human capability and that doesn't apply to Captain America.Jack Hammer 01:05, 20 January 2007 (UTC) :::::: I disagree since it does apply and Wiki has accepted it because of the references. In the official hand-book master edition vol 3 #2 it states intellegence is at Peak-Human. In Young-Men #24 the Doctor that gave the serume to Steve stated it enhanced his intellect to a Supernormal degree. Plus in many of the orgins it states Cap will be a terror because of his enhanced mind and body. During the huge Kang battle it states Captain America mastered a futuristic fighting style in his first trial, while other warriors would take decades to do so. To other feats as well. To ignore this is to ignore that his mind is enhanced.